Saturday, May 13, 2006

banyanTree QA Rounds

Discussion on #banyanTree (freenode):

[14:31] ai2097: Hate to be Mr. Negative... but shouldn't the details about what is being provided be pinned down first? Is this intended to provide software/tools, a community, the latter built atop the former (which is the impression I'm getting), or something else?
[14:32] KillerX: A community based on a portal
[14:32] SumitDatta: ai2097 that is exactly what we are doing now...
[14:32] KillerX: We will not host any projects
[14:32] KillerX: Or provide any infrastructure
[14:32] SumitDatta: discussing with the people and pinning down details
[14:32] SumitDatta: and we are not providing hosting
[14:32] KillerX: Merely the middlemen in connecting developers to those who need them
[14:33] ai2097: KillerX: Then you're providing infrastructure.
[14:33] KillerX: Of course, if Google funds us, we can start project hosting too ;)
[14:33] SumitDatta: just think the HR department ...
[14:33] ai2097: The HR department works for a company.
[14:33] KillerX: Yeah lets not compare it to HR
[14:33] ai2097: This "HR department" isn't tied to a single project.
[14:33] KillerX: :)
[14:33] KillerX: Wrong comparision
[14:34] SumitDatta: ok HR isnt the appropriate word, but i found it the closest
[14:34] SumitDatta: the word "guide" is best suited i think
[14:34] KillerX: ai2097: A little info on yourself would be helpful?
[14:34] SumitDatta: guide to those who are new to the community as a whole
[14:36] ai2097: KillerX: I'm nobody in particular ;). Bug fixes here and there, personal projects every now and again. I poked around the GPLFlash project for a while;
[14:38] SumitDatta: ai2097 think of this is the following way : Google SoC lists projects from many orgs ... it helps students to look around and join some project. these are projects not just related to sf or freshmeat.
[14:38] ai2097: Freshmeat, AFAIK, doesn't host anything.
[14:39] SumitDatta: i meant projects listed there... not really hosted
[14:39] KillerX: You are right. Freshmeat is just an index of projects
[14:39] ai2097: So, why can't we just convince freshmeat and/or sourceforge to add "help wanted" sections to each project?
[14:40] SumitDatta: what i mean is that we provide the listing of what is important right now : like FreeBSD may need someone on Fonts for example
[14:40] SumitDatta: sf has help wanted, not well coordianted
[14:40] SumitDatta: there are many projects that are not reached in those sections
[14:40] ai2097: But it's up to FreeBSD to do two things: 1) know they need a fonts guy, and 2) put out a request for it.
[14:41] ai2097: You're assuming that projects can figure out (1) in the first place, and have a problem with (2).
[14:41] KillerX: ai2097: The primary goal of BanyanTree is to help new people who know development but are new to the open source scenario
[14:41] ai2097: From what I can tell, if a popular project has a problem or a need, word -tends- to get around.
[14:41] SumitDatta: what about the guys who knows fonts for linux, could do it for freeBSD in summer, yet didnt get the freeBSD page in the 2 months time
[14:41] KillerX: Just think of it as an all year Google Sumer of Code, without the money
[14:42] SumitDatta: yes
[14:42] ai2097: That assumes too much.
[14:42] ai2097: I'm doing a research paper on a tangentially related issue, and I've come across a study conducted in 2003 about OSS projects and quality.
[14:43] SumitDatta: somethings must be assumed : and we are just assuming that project maintainers will be happy to join us
[14:43] ai2097: Nonsense! Use research, and figure out who your target audience is -- then cater to the needs of that audience.
[14:44] KillerX: ai2097: Completely agree
[14:44] KillerX: That is what we are doing :)
[14:45] KillerX: ai2097: We do not intend to assume (1) or even (2)
[14:45] SumitDatta: KillerX not really, target audience and interested students are two diff worlds
[14:45] * ai2097 digs up the study
[14:46] SumitDatta: ai2097, once we pull in the roadmap and the initial plans things will be easier to understand
[14:46] ai2097: Zhao, Elbaum; 2002. Quality assurance under the Open Source development model.
[14:47] SumitDatta: link ?
[14:47] KillerX: ai2097: care to send the paper to me:
[14:47] KillerX: Sumit, that is a research paper, goddamnit
[14:47] SumitDatta: the pdfs of many research papers are downloadable :)
[14:48] SumitDatta: so i just asked...
[14:48] ai2097: "Documentation did not play such a dominant role.
[14:48] ai2097: Over 84% of the respondents prepare a ‘‘TODO’’ list
[14:48] ai2097: (including list of pending features and open bugs). 62%
[14:48] ai2097: build installation and building guidelines, 32% projects
[14:48] ai2097: have design documents, and 20% have documents to
[14:48] ai2097: plan releases (including dates and content).
[14:48] ai2097: "
[14:48] ai2097: Ack >_o
[14:48] ai2097: That is not what I wanted to do. Sorry for the flood >_<
[14:48] SumitDatta: hehe
[14:50] KillerX: Hehe
[14:50] SumitDatta: ai2097 do you think SoC is of no use then ?
[14:50] ai2097: http: // sa=U&q= ~luyin/luyin.pdf
[14:50] KillerX: Yay
[14:51] ai2097: No, I don't think it's of no use, but it will only reach projects that either already know where they're going, or that don't exist (i.e., there's a technology hole), or that google itself (or someone elese) has architected extensions that it wants to see done.
[14:52] SumitDatta: orgs like Apache receive 25 or more students for 3 months projects : that lot of manpower : do useful projects. if such a permanent environment exist more students would happily spend summer and winter to code for some org even if there isnt money involved
[14:52] ai2097: Why does Apache need you to do that?
[14:53] SumitDatta: think not in terms of individual orgs... think interms of the community : each playing its role and we volunteers coordinating the site
[14:55] SumitDatta: think in this example point of view : you subscribe to a RSS feed which informs you of all C/C++ based projects involving Flash File Format....
[14:55] ai2097: Google is in a unique position to make itself known. I can appreciate the value of centralization, but how do you expect to become the next "SoC"-type setup when Google already exists, and (if I understand correctly) is what you're trying to emulate?
[14:55] ai2097: So, back to "why not integrate it with freshmeat"?
[14:56] SumitDatta: management problems of a new system with an existing one
[14:56] SumitDatta: thus point of starting from fresh
[14:56] ai2097: I have another study centering around the motivation of OSS contributors, too. Let me see if I can dig up a link.
[14:57] ai2097: Yes, but FM is already well-known, and already has a proven infrastructure in place. If you can extend that, instead of creating your own system, it will be more beneficial to everyone.
[14:58] SumitDatta: tell me something : when you visit FM homepage what do you see ?
[14:59] SumitDatta: if i am right i see lists of projects as in how and what they do.
[14:59] SumitDatta: we are concentrating on "how you can plug in to the project of your choice easily"
[15:00] ai2097: Well, how do you associate with a project?
[15:00] ai2097: Lemme dig up that link...
[15:01] SumitDatta: each projects has different *current* needs : from documentation to core programming. we speak to the people who are interested in devoting time to volunteer in a project : NOT users
[15:02] ai2097: http :// sa=U&q=
[15:02] ai2097: Ah, but therein lies the rub: what motivates people to participate in an OSS project in the first place?
[15:03] SumitDatta: what motivated you to jump into OSS... we all know its personal choice... i am not forcing anyone
[15:03] ai2097: You're assuming that people want to come in out of the blue and contribute their time to any project that needs help.
[15:04] SumitDatta: i am just guiding those who want to come, yet are not aware of many current details
[15:06] ai2097: In other words, the mindset is "Gee. I really want to contribute to OSS, and I have . But I don't know who needs me!"
[15:07] ai2097: Actually, I should phrase that in the form of a question; is that statement correct?
[15:08] SumitDatta: its not that way.... its rather "Who needs my skillset *now* " .... take my example : i am doing gdata for drupal, because i am php coder and am interested in rss/atom stuff. but if i landed with joomla then maybe i wouldnt be able to know that drupal is asking it
[15:09] SumitDatta: here time constraints is important : a student mostly wants to learn and work on topics he knows best
[15:09] ai2097: So, shouldn't it be tied to the bug tracker, then?
[15:09] KillerX: ai2097: It is a widely known fact that those who are willing to code, find it *very* difficult finding people who need help
[15:09] ai2097: KillerX: Sources?
[15:09] SumitDatta: ai2097 how can a student think of tracking all 400 + CMS in PHP ??????
[15:09] SumitDatta: that is insane
[15:10] KillerX: ai2097: Experience. Personal and others. Feedback. Grapevine. Not a research paper though
[15:10] ai2097: Really? I can't seem to throw a stick without hitting projects that need some form of help or another.
[15:10] SumitDatta: that is because you want to help in anything
[15:11] SumitDatta: most students as i said concentrate in topics they know of
[15:11] ai2097: But then, I'm being argumentative for a purpose, too ;).
[15:11] SumitDatta: afterall they are not supposed to know everything
[15:11] ai2097: SumitDatta: About your previous comment, regarding "tracking all 400 + CMS in PHP" -- I don't understand what you mean.
[15:12] SumitDatta: "ai2097: So, shouldn't it be tied to the bug tracker, then?"
[15:13] SumitDatta: which project's bugs should he track to find the PHP + Atom combination ?
[15:13] ai2097: Oh, that's different.
[15:13] SumitDatta: there are so many CMS in PHP out there..
[15:13] SumitDatta: that is exactly our point
[15:13] SumitDatta: it is difficult to get to right projects FAST
[15:13] ai2097: What I mean is, since it's "what skills are needed now," the best way to integrate the -demand- side would be to put it in the bug tracker.
[15:15] ai2097: But then, that would require any projects that want to participate have a bugtrack system that allows the devs to specify what kind of skills are required to fix the bug.
[15:15] SumitDatta: ofcourse ...
[15:15] SumitDatta: this is tied to the projects after all
[15:15] SumitDatta: but the site volunteers make the task easier
[15:15] SumitDatta: and thus the need for such a unique system from scratch
[15:16] KillerX: ai2097: When I finish the roadmap, I will send you a copy. It will address all your concerns
[15:16] KillerX: :)
[15:16] SumitDatta: and thus no relation to FM
[15:16] SumitDatta: but frankly ai2097 you have probably all the questions that other mentors could ask
[15:16] SumitDatta: so i am going to Ctrl+C anc Ctrl+V all the above lines :)
[15:17] SumitDatta: you mind that ?
[15:17] ai2097: Go for it :)
[15:17] KillerX: Sumit, did you copy yesterdays conversation with Leslie?
[15:17] SumitDatta: i will put this in the blog... we both have tried to answer your questions
[15:17] KillerX: We should really log the channel, esp in the initial stages
[15:17] SumitDatta: KillerX, i forgot that i didnt have a log of that
[15:17] SumitDatta: do you have ?
[15:17] KillerX: :(
[15:18] KillerX: It's ok
[15:18] KillerX: We remember ;)
[15:18] SumitDatta: Leslie could have...
[15:18] KillerX: I'll ask her
[15:18] SumitDatta: ok
[15:19] SumitDatta: KillerX, i think we both did a great job in actually clearing out initial doubts since mentors will surely have questions
[15:21] KillerX: Sumit, I updated the banyanTree repos to use SVN instead of CVS
[15:21] SumitDatta: nice
[15:21] SumitDatta: you rock
[15:22] ai2097: I'm going over to a different screen; just say my name if you need me back.
[15:22] SumitDatta: ai2097, the way we see it, this project could help thousands of students around the world to get into FOSS
[15:22] ai2097: That was fast :p.

Discussion on #gnash (freenode):

[16:58] brainlessV2: tgc hi
[16:58] brainlessV2: i found out Gnash was there for Google SoC
[16:59] tgc: hi brainlessV2
[17:00] tgc: i wasent sure we even applied... but good!
[17:00] brainlessV2: also i have something that should interest you :
[17:00] brainlessV2: ai2097 knows of this and has been discussing a lot with us
[17:07] tgc: brainlessV2: interesting, but hasen't this been done before?
[17:07] tgc: isn't sourceforge kindof the the same, except they also
hosts the projects?
[17:07] brainlessV2: not quite at this scale or that this involves all
the orgs mentors for ground up
[17:08] brainlessV2: banyanTree is intended to be very tightly knit from inside
[17:08] brainlessV2: also sf doesnt deal with projects outside sf
[17:09] tgc: is it intended to be SoC projects, or all FOSS projects?
[17:09] brainlessV2: and bt is primarily for the fresh minds that are
coming in or interested to come in to OSS
[17:10] brainlessV2: all FOSS ... but we think we will start with SoC
group since the mentors were already chosen and they wont mind helping
us a bit, i guess
[17:10] brainlessV2: we will have long discussions with all
participating orgs in one room... before that we are doing the initial
setting up of wiki etc so we can express the initial ideas
[17:11] brainlessV2: right now we are planning the roadmap and plans etc...
[17:12] tgc: you could just use a wiki to hold all the information in
BT, couldn't you?
[17:12] brainlessV2: no, because information gathering and
presentation needs huge systems
[17:12] tgc: isn't wikipedia huge?
[17:12] kjetilho: consider SF, or Freshmeat. there are tens of
thousands of projects. it simply won't come together as a whole
[17:13] brainlessV2: since at the end we want to be able to help many
thousands of students and similar number of projects
[17:13] kjetilho: tgc: Wikipedia isn't made for interactive discussion
[17:14] tgc: kjetilho: true
[17:14] brainlessV2: we dont want all of them to come as a whole : if
the initial orgs come : others will feel the benefit and join
[17:15] brainlessV2: it is difficult to put something of this scale :
but we must try
[17:15] tgc: i also see a big problem with dead projects, SF got loads of them
[17:16] brainlessV2: we are thinking of ways for that
[17:16] tgc: good :)
[17:16] brainlessV2: what we are trying to do i guide those students
at the school and college levels
[17:17] brainlessV2: they have skill yet are not aware of the details inside OSS
[17:17] brainlessV2: people do have trouble finding a particular
project of interest out of so many...
[17:18] brainlessV2: we want to fill that gap : so we need to have bt
as a much more user-friendly and shinny in a way maybe
[17:18] brainlessV2: in the end we will slowly be able to build teams
of developers around the world whom we have been able to show the way
: that is the goal
[17:21] brainlessV2: tgc, kjetilho you mind if i link to this sessions
log : So that people with similar query will get an idea ?
[17:22] tgc: have you thought about teaming up with some of the "big
players"? like OSTG?
[17:22] brainlessV2: yes we have thought of that...
[17:22] tgc: fine with me
[17:22] brainlessV2: but before that happens we need to put up our plans etc.
[17:23] brainlessV2: right now i am trying to install the darn wiki on ;)
[17:23] tgc: brainlessV2: good luck! wiki on SF is painfully!
[17:24] brainlessV2: yes that is what i can see
[17:24] tgc: which wiki will you use?
[17:24] brainlessV2: dokuwiki ... it is the simplest
[17:24] brainlessV2: but we have tried media, doku, and tiki
[17:24] brainlessV2: so i am retrying doku
[17:25] tgc: you could try moinmoin
[17:25] tgc: worked for gplflash
[17:25] brainlessV2: yes but i am newbie in python
[17:26] brainlessV2: though we plan to move to python
[17:26] brainlessV2: since it will give all flexibility for building
such a nice bt application

No comments:

Post a Comment